From: Deepsea Dawn Date: November 7, 2007 9:53:21 AM PST To: ppgis@lists.oregonstate.edu Subject: [Ppgis] Dawn's notes from this morning Dawn's Notes from WUN Lecture 3 by Rina Ghose LISC = local ? support coalition challenges with local politics community in-house GIS recommended (even over university) as the way to access data and services, but still relatively rare Internet GIS issue: - sites contain public data only - no inculsioin of local knowledge -community organizations (COs) don't use the query function because they don't understand SQL and don't consult the help documentation definition of neighborhood - many definitions exist - semantics as we discussed in class (Eugene's point) organizational context slides 1-4 really spoke to me as they cover how issues that indicate effectively an organization may be able to participate in PPGIS articulation of an organizational MISSION that supports collaboratively planning, and those who can tap in to a consistent funding source CDC and CBO - missed definition of these acronyms - community-based orgs? Question raised by Dawn after the presentation: university - CO relationship not a one-way street - what does the university receive from the CO? - huge opp for university and its students to understand benefits of partnership - great way to learn hands-on about social justice issues - students are developing their ow understaning of PPGIS and learning further by actually providing resources to the CO - university does not provide adequate services to pull this off at times - e.g., use of web GIS and huge problems there with regard to staff support (maintaining the servers on campus) - university going through its own fiscal crisis - in terms of teaching agendas - sometimes the CO/PPGIS courses may not be large in enrollment and large enrollments are more favored - more student credit hours, more revenue and relevance for the unit offering the courses (same issue at OSU) - a wonderful way of learning though - students earn how COs function, about qualitative research, increase their own understanding of GIS - but getting harder and harder to do these partnerships because of lack of resources Dave Unwin posts log of questions raised during the discussion Q: local knowledge vs. less-than-local knowledge? A: local knowledge is very detailed understanding of the neighborhoods (economics,, housing, unemployment, safety issues, etc.) - COs try to collect detailed data on that - most of this is not publicly-available data public data = demographic data, zoning, health, city's tax base data, accessible through GIS actors integration happens only through data center IF a CO asks for it, or via partnerships UWM did this combining for the CO, but this is a rarity Q: Places vs. spaces? Differences between those two? A: Neighborhoods are "places" and should be looked at in that way Many actors in collaborative governance look at them as "spaces" though There is some tension there playing out there Steve Carver - What about overlapping places? - Overlapping places and overlapping spaces exist and affect things quite a bit in terms of planning issues, avaialble resources, created problems and confusion among different COs Dave Unwin: people have used yellow pages and text analysis softare to arrive at fuzzy regions - is there a link there? - disheartening - despite doing all of the work, biggest challenge is getting CO to use GIS on a daily basis - staff reductions - so how do we deal with that?? Q: Simple thematic maps vs. complex maps? A: COs like maps with just 1 or 2 variables - A complex map would be a density map which CO did not understand - example of understanding overlay - working with paper map and not wanting to use GIS - free workshop on GIS still has challenges - from CO point of view, who has the time to spend on attending the session and then retaining that information? Q: Community as individuals or community as organizations - representative vs. direct democracy? A: What has happened in collaborative governance is that representation of citiizens via the neighborhood-based COs predominates - representative planning has recognized one CO as the lead voice - how do we know if the residents agree with that? - representative groups, not the individuals have the voice - but individuals do come to the meetings Full log of chat session below: [8:08 AM] Dave: Question to Richard Kingston: how different is this urban planning in UK and rest of Europe? [8:08 AM] Muki: Dave, there's a paper by Carolyn Harrison and myself comparing PPGIS in the US and UK [8:09 AM] Dave: Please add reference. [8:09 AM] Muki: The governance structure is top-down in the UK and more bottom-up in the US. I'll check if it's on my site ... [8:11 AM] RichardK: More recently there has been an attempt to re-engage the local through "double devolution" whilst at the same time propossing a national infrastructure planning commission for large scale developments which takes power away from neighbourhoods. [8:13 AM] Jason: Sometimes, as in the case of Oregon, "who get's to participate" is formulated in State law [8:14 AM] Dave: Is this common in USA? [8:14 AM] Piotr: This uneven participation seems to be especially evident in downtown "beutification" projects, where the businesses that want to be placed downtown are selecting which community members are allowed into the planning process [8:15 AM] UWa Backup: In the US many Federal, State and Local laws specify who will participate. It is often a result of what "falvor" of tax dollars are involved with projects. [8:15 AM] Steve: How much of this participation is singly online versus in facilitated focus groups? [8:16 AM] Maria: How important and strong is community participation in decision-making in Europe? [8:17 AM] RichardK: It is enshrined in legislation/planning policy but the degree of weight put on that part of the process varies from one area to the next. [8:18 AM] Dave: This data availability would be very hard to ensure in UK because of the policies of our national mapping agency [8:18 AM] Muki: Actually, the NMA data is not the real problem. It's the other datasets [8:19 AM] "Deepsea Dawn": Any progress in changing those policies Dave? [8:19 AM] Muki: Lots of environmental information is really difficult to get in EIA and such activities [8:19 AM] UWa Backup: The topic of local and "less local" knowledge would be good discussion for Q&A part. [8:19 AM] Dave: Not yet -- but see Muki Haklay's comment [8:19 AM] Paris: where does PPGIS fall on the "hierarchy of needs"? Do those with the greatest need get to participate? [8:19 AM] Steve: Again, perhaps the only way to ensure representative use is through facilitated focus groups? Time consuming but more robust. [8:20 AM] Muki: The OS is going to release a google maps like interface by the end of the year. [8:20 AM] Muki: BTW, my paper is available at http://homepages.ge.ucl.ac.uk/~mhaklay/pdf/PPGIS-UKUS.doc [8:20 AM] RichardK: Muki I agree although mapping census data is problematice due to our NMA claiming copyright on the digital boundaries as you well know. [8:21 AM] Muki: I agree Richard, but NMAs are easy target when access to data is difficult even when it's out. For example, the Environment Agency pollution inventory is totally useless - and I've tried it on 6-10 communities [8:22 AM] Dave: Do we in UK have any examples of University/Community collaboration/partnership in this context? [8:22 AM] Muki: Yes. I'm working with London 21 in London on a project right now - the green map for London [8:22 AM] Muki: And another project on community mapping [8:22 AM] Steve: I'll be talking about such an example in Montana in my seminar in a few weeks time [8:23 AM] Muki: London 21 is a charity that is leading sustainability activities in London [8:23 AM] RichardK: And I'm just starting the coastal project but is covering the NW region rather than a neighbourhood. [8:24 AM] Dave: are these examples all voluntary or on a paid basis? [8:25 AM] Muki: In my case, we've got joint funding, but than we're working with 4 communities and many groups in each area that are doing it on voluntary basis. I've been working with L21 on voluntary basis for 4 years. [8:26 AM] RichardK: Mine is Env. Agency/DEFRA funded [8:26 AM] SteveC: In what way superior to the public data? [8:26 AM] Steve: Mine is USDA Forest Service funded [8:28 AM] Dave: are ANY thematic maps 'simple'? [8:29 AM] Steve: True enough. What about aerial imagery? [8:29 AM] UWa Backup: Based on the maps presented in this talk, what is a simple map and what is a complex map - please overview [8:29 AM] Jason: Does Wisconsin have a State-mandated planning program with a public participation component, or does public participation in Wisconsin occur as per local codes & policies ? [8:30 AM] RichardK: Question: Do you face data protection issues at the neighbourhood scale? [8:31 AM] Muki: Sorry to bang on on usability - but isn't it all because GIS is so hard to use? [8:31 AM] pathfinder: what's the spatal extent of neighbourhood? how large is it? [8:31 AM] Christine Oszak joined. [8:31 AM] Steve: Question: neighbourhoods are "places" as opposed to "spaces" have you looked at alternative data models to capture this? [8:32 AM] Tyler B.: Is there any effort to create an online GIS tutorial for specific community based users? [8:32 AM] Jason: Interestingly the same COs that want access to GIS technology are the same organizations that oppose tax increases to fund support of GIS (go figure) [8:33 AM] "Deepsea Dawn": Amen! [8:35 AM] SteveC: How do you ensure the whole community is participating equally - can this community PPGIS be derailed by poweful community actors? [8:36 AM] Steve: Question: can community representatives answer the above question? [8:36 AM] Jason: (a) you can't, and (b) yes [8:36 AM] Muki: Do we want to engage the community as individuals, or do we want to give more voice to established organisations which already exist? [8:37 AM] SteveC: I think it depends whether this engages with what local government officers call the 'hard to reach groups' [8:38 AM] Jason: If we wanted to objectively think that individuals have as much expertise as established local organizations, it would still be difficult for decision makers to give more weight to the individual's input [8:39 AM] RichardK: There is a real problem in all of this with the individual view and the 'community' view. A key issue is how to reach consensus through PPGIS? [8:40 AM] Jason: Ah, you've touched on the fundamental flaw of representative democracy [8:40 AM] Steve: plus most people hold both a community view and a different personal view depending on the context/company in which you talk to them [8:41 AM] RichardK: Yep - I'm not sure PPGIS can solve this one.... [8:41 AM] SteveC: Exactly - for some issues there will never be concensus [8:41 AM] Steve: Ineed, but that's half the fun of it all! [8:41 AM] Muki: And there's also here a UK/US difference - in the US, consensus building seem to be important, whereas in the UK the delibration is valuable. So there's also differences in the process because of cultural differences [8:42 AM] Eugene: In that case, even PPGIS can't solve this problem, is there any chance to visualize those different views and informations? [8:43 AM] Muki: yes, there's the concept of argumaps that visualises the different views [8:43 AM] RichardK: Always remeber that PPGIS is a form of decision SUPPORT system not decision TAKING system. [8:44 AM] DonaldDuck: what about the participation of the communities next to a regeneration scheme.Some of the effects of these scheme are realised in nearby communities that are excluded from the regeneration scheme. Social problems, like antisocial behaviour etc, are being remoted to nearby places. [8:45 AM] SteveC: Or with regeneration schemes - you may need the potential new residents for the community to participate [8:51 AM] Paris: what about environmental justice issues? Do you find that communities recognize these issues, or are they more regularly identified by universities/lead organizations? [8:53 AM] Muki: In the UK, EJ is very much lead organisation who raise it. We're running a project right now and communities find it very difficult issue to engage with. It's interested to compare that to the US [8:54 AM] Jon Olav Skoien left. [8:55 AM] SteveC: Muki - can you send me some details on this activity [8:55 AM] Maria: Muki, are you aware of any comparative projects that work on similar issues in both countries? [8:56 AM] shelley joined. [8:56 AM] Muki: No, I don't know - and I would love to work on someone that can help me with comparing the cases. Steve - again, it's with London 21 so if you look at http://www.london21.org/page/79/project/show/env_ineq [8:56 AM] Muki: We've done 2 communities already and engaging with a third very soon. [8:57 AM] Muki: We hope to write up a report on this early next year. [8:58 AM] SteveC: Great - can you send me a copy when you have it? [8:58 AM] Muki: Sure. So far, it's very very difficult to even convince communities to get out of their area to do comparative mapping ... [9:00 AM] Maria: Is it because they don't see any benefit from it? ----------- Dawn Wright | Professor | Department of Geosciences Oregon State University | Corvallis, OR 97331-5506 http://dusk.geo.orst.edu | 541-737-1229 phone | 541-737-1200 fax _______________________________________________ Ppgis mailing list Ppgis@lists.oregonstate.edu http://lists.oregonstate.edu/mailman/listinfo/ppgis To unsubscribe, send a message to: Ppgis-request@lists.oregonstate.edu with the word "unsubscribe" in the body.